If asking states to consider scaling back some ministries to send more $ to the nations then the plea of states for churches to send more is a plea for the local church – the place disciples r made – to eat themselves.

It isn’t cannibalism; it is a re balancing of the Great commission portfolio. Putting more resources in the asset classes which directly contribute to establishing thriving local churches and helping struggling churches thrive once more. The Great Commission is fulfilled in thriving local churches. We should invest and re-calibrate accordingly.

For what it’s worth, I’d like to offer a few points of clarification. For starters, I believe that we need a Great Commission Resurgence AND I think we have the greatest missions sending agency in the world and our state conventions do great things. My Grandfather and my Dad were state execs and I take their (and other state execs) work very seriously.

Also, I believe that there is a greater need for money to go to the nations because their is little to no witness amongst tens of millions of people. You quote me as if I was saying that unbelievers overseas are somehow more lost than those down the street. That, of course, is absurd. As you stated, from Ephesians 2, lost is lost. My simple point is that the amount of money that we’re using to reach the lost (in whatever area) seems disproportional. That is, we’re using tens of millions of dollars to reach, in Kentucky for example, a couple of million lost folks. These folks, of course, are also surrounded by churches that are spending millions of dollars to reach them as well. This in contrast to the hundreds of millions of people who have little or no Christians among them and little to no money being spent to reach them. In light of this, I’d like to see a greater percentage of money go to reaching those people. Hope this makes things clearer.

Finally, I do think we disagree about how things should change. You say, “However, one cannot call on their state convention to live off of 50% when the church sends a mere 2.75% to CP to be divided between the state and national convention.

If we are going to reconcile this debate we must begin treating others the way we desire to be treated.”

This seems to imply that churches and state conventions are playing on an even playing field. That is, they’re playing by the same rules. Well, like many other muddy statements, this deserves a yes and a no. Yes, we’re all called to love God and one another as we love ourselves. We’re all under Christ’s glorious kingship. But, we also need to answer no to what you’re saying here. Even though we’re all under Christ’s kingship, the church has priority in his kingdom plans (not denominations). So, denominations should not demand that churches do what they say first (give more to CP) if they want them to do what the churches want them to do (give more to international missions). It works the other way around (or it should).

Well, more than you wanted, but perhaps this will add some clarity.

Jedidiah

you wrote

“• Evangelism Growth — $1,508,682 (6.16%)
Funds evangelism training events; on-site consultation for churches and associations; Baptist Campus Ministry on college campuses statewide; evangelism conferences; Crossover activities; creative ministries training events and more.

(Again, evangelism training can be done by other churches who have a track record with evangelism. In my state we have the Billy Graham School of Evangelism. Plus, I’ve been to a state evangelism conference before and they did bring in a seminary professor as the speaker. Creative ministries is an interesting one. There are 2 “Creative Ministries festivals” put on each year. These include creative arts workshops on a wide range of topics: monologues, church plays, improv, mimes on mission, beginning an interpretive movement team, clowns on mission, pocket magic, balloon sculpting, puppet choreography, etc.)”

Clowns on mission? Mimes on Mission? is this for real?

Nathan

These are GREAT questions that I don’t really think I know the answers to. Does anyone know? I think it is so hard in the SBC sometimes for the right hand to know what the left hand is doing b/c we are so big and b/c of autonomy at each level. I think the task of figuring out where the duplication might be is what the GCRTF has been looking at.

I don’t have statistical answers but in my experience there is a lot of duplication in areas like “evangelism” b/c training is being done by local churches, state conventions, lifeway, seminaries, etc. Now, I’m not saying that all evangelism has to take place at one place, but do we need 4 or 5?!

Jon

Two things. 1) Lifeway as it relates to the state conventions. How much of our “training and consultation” is duplicated by both Lifeway or SBC agencies compared to the state conventions. Could some of these services be shifted to a central agency instead of each state doing it? You wrote “Sunday School support”, as one of the things the state does. Could this be done by Lifeway? I think their webiste includes most of the things you wrote the leadership of your state does.

2) Guidestone as it relates to the state conventions. Same basic questions.

Let me try to interact with your last post.

1. I agree there needs to “be more money sent from the local churches to the IMB,” but I’d add more of the money local churches send needs to actually make it to the IMB rather than just sending around to designate only to the IMB.

2. I agree wholeheartedly that churches need to re-evaluate what they are doing and give more. Certainly a GCR needs to take place at the local church level and we need to call for our churches to “step up to the plate.” However…

3. Here’s my problem with what you’re laying out. While I agree local churches need to give more I have a problem with convention entities at ANY level telling churches they need to get their act in gear before the entity gets it’s act in gear (For example, David Hankins’ comments that if churches gave 10% to CP he could guarantee that states would give 50%). I think this betrays an attitude PERVASIVE among our entities that the churches serve them NOT that they serve the churches!

To say the churches need to get in gear before we streamline, clean up, restructure to meet priorities, etc. is like a church telling its members to give more before the church demonstrates a track record of using the money effectively to accomplish its biblical mission. That’s backwards. Let the entities say we will streamline/shift to meet the priority of mission expecting that when that happens the churches will be more onboard with what’s happening and will give more. That’s what I think (and I hope) the GCR in terms of article 9 is all about…

So I disagree that the “whole locus of this discussion should be with the local churchs.” It should be at every level. The local church is primary and the only entity that has to exist. Everything else is secondary and in some sense temporary. The churches should give more, but the disucssion has to be at all levels b/c if entities aren’t using the money to accomplish the mission then the churches should withhold or demand a change or give around!

“Bloated bureaucracy” isn’t a smokescreen. It is a reason why some churches are giving less and using more money themselves to do mission. They say if we don’t give to these bureaucracies at least we will be able to tell our people with confidence where their money is going and that is going to missions.

Bottom line of all that I’ve been trying to say is this: I want more money for missions and the unreached peoples of the world. However that needs to happen, whatever sacrifices need to be made at individual, church, state and national level let’s make them!

Jon

Your request for a series breaking down the funding in states is an excellent idea and one I think we will try to take up soon. Let me give a brief answer here in terms of my state convention and then offer if I might some things that may not need to be done by state conventions.

Here is some what the 9 million dollars given to KBC Mission Board does. I’ll put my comments in parentheses.

Kentucky Baptist Mission Board — $9,015,276 (36.83%)
The Cooperative Program allocation to the Kentucky Baptist Mission Board is divided the following ways:
• Leadership Development — $1,673,185 (6.83%)
Funds the Church Retirement Plan for Kentucky Baptist ministers and church staff; leadership development training and consultation for churches; support for ministers in need; couples and seniors events; worship and music training and consultation; the Shepherding the Shepherd Conference and more.

(You’re going to find the words “training” and “consultation” often in this list. There are specific consultations that churches can call for in a certain area. There are conferences the convention puts on, etc. In this list specifically, Lifeway, other groups, or even other local churches nearby can provide leadership training/consultation. Why can’t churches provide senior adult events? Music training?).

• Evangelism Growth — $1,508,682 (6.16%)
Funds evangelism training events; on-site consultation for churches and associations; Baptist Campus Ministry on college campuses statewide; evangelism conferences; Crossover activities; creative ministries training events and more.

(Again, evangelism training can be done by other churches who have a track record with evangelism. In my state we have the Billy Graham School of Evangelism. Plus, I’ve been to a state evangelism conference before and they did bring in a seminary professor as the speaker. Creative ministries is an interesting one. There are 2 “Creative Ministries festivals” put on each year. These include creative arts workshops on a wide range of topics: monologues, church plays, improv, mimes on mission, beginning an interpretive movement team, clowns on mission, pocket magic, balloon sculpting, puppet choreography, etc.)

• Missions Growth — $1,292,738 (5.28%)
Funds disaster relief, construction, ex-offender mentoring and other ministries; ethnic and language ministries; new church starts; association support; partnership missions projects and more.
• Church Development — $1,142,537 (4.67%)
Funds training events for churches; youth leader training and youth events; on-site training and consutations for chures and associations; support for Sunday school and discipleship training efforts; church building efforts; stewardship training and more.

(again lots of training and consultations. I think a new paradigm of state conventions pairing churches together for consultations might help save some money.)

• Executive Office — $1,264,713 (5.17%)
Funds Cooperative Program promotion; communications services such as printed material, Web site management and video production; research; special Convention projects and more.

• Business Services — $1,157,911 (4.73%)
Funds distribution of CP and other funds; accounting and budget services; collection of Annual Church Profile data; human resource management; Mission Board computer systems and more.
• General Items — $975,510 (3.98%)
Funds KBC scholarships, maintenance of the Kentucky Baptist Archives; expenses of the Kentucky Baptist annual meeting; KBC committee work; and more.

Thomas, this helps give an idea of some of the things the money is going to on a state level. B21 will try to provide more info so everyone understands exactly where things go…

Jon

Sorry for late response. My weekends are spent in family time and sermon prep/delivery, so this is my first chance to respond to your two comments.

1. I know that you are trying to remain neutral in your comments, but I think we probably disagree a little more than is stated. For one thing I don’t think discussions about changing state convention allocations is “lost in the weeds” and you do.

2. You may be right about our different “guesses” at how local churches will prioritize their ministry spending. It may be that local churches are more “onboard” with the current structure (as a sidenote: I am not trying to criticize camps like Falls Creek or great schools like OBU. Plus, when it comes to OBU I think it fits under one of the emphases I’ve raised about minister training).

It may be that local churches would say “keep” the youth camp. That really hasn’t been my argument. My argument has been that too much money is kept in state and more needs to go to the mission field, so we need to prioritize what we do. That’s it. The discussion has centered around one specific area, youth camps. All I’ve been saying is that youth camps like other things we might mention (certain trainings & consultations) don’t HAVE to be done by the state conventions.

3. Honestly even if churches would say keep youth camps I don’t think we are losing millions of possible missions dollars in youth camps (Also, any youth camp I ever went to there was an expected payment of each individual. I’m sure it’s cheaper than what it would be, but there is still a cost). There are a lot of other things that $ gets caught up in that just don’t need to be done. I will post about this in response to another comment.

4. BUT, let’s say you’re right. Let’s say a “majority” of churches if it comes to a vote would back the current system with all of the programs it offers their churches rather than voting to get more to missions (if churches understood that this is actually the choice they are making I don’t think they’d vote for the current system. I think this is part of what the GCR is about) then I think it is the job of local church pastors to educate their people to have the attitude toward the Great Commission that the Bible does. It would take leadership. If the majority of our churches back the current system it shows even MORE our need for a GCR! I don’t think they will. I think that’s why there was a 95% vote from the floor to look at this.

5. I agree with your proposal for churches to beef up what they give to Lottie. BUT, I wanna see reform of the system b/c I believe without it then you’ll eventually have a bunch of churches designating only to what they like and there won’t be as high a level of cooperation on the four priorities I mentioned. I think there needs to be reform so those things are emphasized.

6. I agree that it would be interesting to see how many churches designate.

7. Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t this lack of giving to the CP begin before the economic recession. No doubt that has had a part to play in this, but I think two things have been the main contributors: 1) New spirit among the churches where they want to be hands on in the mission of Christ in the world, 2) disenchantment with current giving percentage. To me states are paring down not b/c of any strategic move but b/c they are having to…

Jon

Median household income for Kentucky – $37,046
Tithe (should do the 2% that is average, but I’ll pretend for this) – $3,705
Assume church gives 10% to CP – $371
KBC passes 16.67% on to IMB – $61.83
KBC keeps in state 62.68% – $232.54

Kentucky receives $27 million (roughly $6.50 per person in the state) while the IMB gets $4.5 million (0.075 cents per person)

This isn’t a dig at the KBC or any state convention, I owe much of my spiritual growth in college to a KBC funded college campus ministry, and I fully endorse the CP as the best allocation of funds for 40,000+ churches to partner together

Simply asking for us to think about this and ask “How can we be more effective?”